#066 – Pyramid of Influence with Brent Bartel, pt 2
If you’re a parent, you probably wish you had more influence on your children than you do. But, how do you make that happen?
Brent Bartel, a coach, and Tina Gosney talk about Stephen R Covey’s Pyramid of Influence in his book, “Principle-Centered Leadership”
and how to begin having more influence on the people you love the most. This is episode is part 2 of 2 as Brent and Tina discuss just the bottom level of the pyramid – Modeling.
Want to contact Brent Bartel? Email him at: [email protected]
Full Transcript
You’re listening to The Coaching Your Family Relationships Podcast, Episode 66, The Pyramid of
Influence with Brent Bartel, part two.
Did you know the quality of your family connections directly
affects your happiness and satisfaction with your life. family relationships, though, can be so tricky,
can’t they? I’m your host family relationship coach Tina Gosney. And I am here to help you navigate
through those tricky parts of your family relationships. When you begin to work on you, everything
begins to change.
I’m so glad you’re tuning in for part two of this discussion that I had with Brent
about Stephen R. Covey’s pyramid of influence. I have loved this discussion, I’ve thought about the
things that Brett and I talked about. We recorded this several weeks ago. And I’ve been thinking a lot
about this discussion. And in part one, you heard about choose the proactive response. That’s not
always easy to do.
Sometimes that’s really hard to do. But you know, it is so important for us to do
also to become the people that we want to be so that we can have the influence on those people that
we love. And if this is something that’s hard for you, I want you to sign up for my breathing class, I’ve
got some links in the show notes, I’ll be teaching it three more times in October. So go find a date
that works for you. Or if none of those dates work for you. Just sign up for one of them, and you’ll get
the replay later. So I’m gonna stop talking now.
And I’m gonna let you get into part two of this
discussion with Brent on the pyramid of influence, enjoy.
Brent Bartel
01:54
Hey, another really common sense here. But this is simply number to keep the promises and
commitments you make to others. And I think this really all begins with the promises and
commitments that we make to ourselves. All of the stuff about which we speak today follows this
inside out approach. The public victories are made possible due to the private victories. So there is a
real sense like we referred to earlier of sequence here. I adopted a metaphor years ago, I’m really big
into metaphors, but of my personal integrity account. And the currency in the account is self trust. So
the account is held and balanced by my deposits and withdrawals, just like any account, it’s how
much I trust myself, when I make choices based on my values and how I want to show up in the
world, I make deposits into my integrity account. Conversely, when my choices are driven often by
feelings, or moods, or the environment or other people, etc. And I’m not at my best, and I often take
withdrawals. And I discovered and you know, I’m remiss to say that it took me a long time to kind of
discover this, but that self trust or intra personal trust, so trust within leads to interpersonal trust, or
trust between. So if I trust myself, I develop the capacity to be more trustworthy with others. Does
that make sense?
Tina Gosney
03:28
Absolutely. And I think well, I know that most people are super quick to keep their commitment that
they make to another person. And also super quick to break the commitment they make to
themselves. Yeah. And I think probably the majority of the people that I’ve worked with, they will tell
me that same thing, a break promises and commitments to themselves all the time. Which is an
interesting, interesting that when we are so red, when we’re so quick to break our own commitment
to ourself, and so quick to live into it with other people. It actually erodes that relationship we have
with ourselves that then ends up spilling out into our relationships with others so much more easily,
that we don’t often realize that they’re so closely tied together. Do you what is your opinion on why
we’re so hard to why it’s so hard to keep the commitment to ourself?
Brent Bartel
04:36
You know, I think there’s, I think there’s a lot of things that we can unpack there. I think sometimes
our commitment with other people, I mean, there’s a certain social responsibility. Other things kind of
lie sort of in the balance there. I mean, if I don’t show up to teach a class, I mean, you know, there’s
public scrutiny, there’s a level of embarrassment, failed expectations, you know, a variety of things
like that.
Tina Gosney
05:00
Uh, what are they gonna think of me? Yes,
Brent Bartel
05:03
absolutely. So you know, some of it plays to our ego a little bit. In and that’s not a bad thing. But I
think there’s some times it’s just more incentive at that level because of the consequences. And sort
of the unfavorable kind of nature of the consequences. It is easier with ourselves. And so much of this
is habit to, I think some of it teenagers, we just don’t even realize we’re making these commitments,
and we don’t see them as commitments. If I slow down once again, and I tell myself, I’m going to do
something, I’m going to work out six times this week and big exerciser, it’s important to me. And I
make that contract with myself. And then I take that next step to really actualize it, and I schedule it,
and I protect the time and I do it. It’s really powerful. And like you said, there really is a congruence
and alignment between my willingness and ability to do that, and my ability to be trustworthy with
you, and meet commitments, you know, outside of me as I meet commitments within me. But I just
think often, we just sell ourselves short. And we don’t necessarily see that as a commitment. And we
sometimes make them so flippantly. And so casually, that part of it is just reframing, if we change the
paradigm to look, I’m making a commitment with myself, you know, open up your own personal
integrity accounts, you know, I want to make deposits into that account, I want to start to trust myself
more, if you just reframe it, sometimes slow it down. See, it is something more significant than, you
know, either I do or I don’t see it as something that’s really building your sense of integrity, your
capacity, you know, for trustworthiness and trust, I think for me, then it takes on sort of a larger
reality, and it takes on a greater significance. And I just need to be better for myself. Yeah,
Tina Gosney
07:08
I think that’s really goes into the core of a lot of things that I coach people on, is that they’re
experiencing some hard things in their life. They’re also experiencing a lot of stress and overwhelm,
they don’t trust themselves, to take care of things in a way that’s going to be able to take care of
those circumstances that they’re experiencing. And so they’re just kind of like feeling floundering,
floundering in the wind blowing in the wind, you know, all these things that we’ve been talking about,
they’re not feeling grounded, because they don’t even realize they don’t trust themselves, to take
care of the things that are facing them.
Brent Bartel
07:48
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that’s a really profound thought. Absolutely. And that plays out. And
obviously, the way we think and, you know, our identity and kind of the self talk, and I think it takes a
variety of expressions, but all culminates in that, in that sense that I’m lost, that I’m overwhelmed.
That control for my life resides outside of me. And I think of all the pernicious things, you know,
psychologists call it locus of control, and the locus or the place of control, if it’s more within me, than I
asked, then I’m not so inclined to be acted upon, because in our basic humanity, you know, we were
created to act and not to be acted upon. That I know, in the frenetic lives we live, it’s so easy to get
caught up in the sense that, you know, I’m subjected to all these externalities, all the extrinsic things
in my life, and I become a victim to so many of those things, and then I develop the victim thinking
and, you know, I just crescendos from there. So you’re right, all of this stuff has really proven found
connections kind of downstream, you know, and it manifests itself in our lives in in really discernible
ways. Sometimes we don’t see it, but I think as we slow down again, and kind of look, we can see the
connections we may and how that does manifest in our lives. Lots of different ways. Oftentimes, we
think that this stuff is just within me, it’s silent. It’s hidden, not realizing that all of this plays out. Yes.
In the public stage, in some ways, maybe in the intimate stage of our public lives, are our private
lives. But all of it is expressed in ways. Yeah. Yeah.
Tina Gosney
09:37
So good. Let’s go on to number three. To focus on your circle of influence.
Brent Bartel
09:42
Yeah. Yeah. Can I can I can I tell your story just real quick? Sure. Is that okay? Yeah. Can I just stay on
this one just for half second. Yeah. In terms of in terms of keeping sort of our our commitments to
others, People, I would just reiterate that I think we just need to make promises really sparingly and
just keep them fiercely. I have one grandson that I love very much and, and he calls me Poppy. I’m
not sure how I got that name, but I’m Poppy. And we have Poppy Day, right? Isn’t isn’t that like a
princess troll or something like that?
Tina Gosney
10:22
I have no idea because I don’t have little kids anymore. Yeah,
Brent Bartel
10:25
anyway. But notwithstanding we have puppy day and I pick him up on my motorcycle and I brings a
little helmet up there and we drive around the corner to Safeway. And we he picks out a treat, and he
always picks out something of amazing nutritional value like sour gummies, or atomic warheads or
something. Because he’s, yeah, cuz he’s seven. And then we go sit out in front of Safeway. There’s
little tables out there and we philosophize the life and we we discuss things like, you know, can
Naruto beat up Spider Man and all the important things in life. It’s really delightful. I love that.
Anyway, point being a couple weeks ago, I was supposed to pick them up. And I don’t have to
schedule this. I just know I’m picking them up. You know, I’m bringing them once or and I’m picking
them up after school. Well, I utterly, totally completely forgot. And it was one of those kinds of
moments. And I didn’t even get it until I saw him later that day. And he looks at me with those big
eyes. He’s like, Bobby, where were you? You were supposed to pick me up today. You know, he tells
me he’s standing out by a you know, on the sidewalk in front of the bus waiting for you to pick him up
a motorcycle. And it’s like, Oh, wow. And I figured you know, within a couple years of therapy, I’m
going to be okay with this.
I’ll be fine next week. But it’s okay. Take you a couple of years.
Brent Bartel
11:38
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I just bought him two packs of gummy worms. And he was great. But but
so I only share that Tina, just because I don’t want anybody to be discouraged by this kind of stuff.
You don’t have to be better than good. You just don’t. I mean, we’re all very human. If just we just
work a little bit on being more mindful and intentional with our commitments, greater trust and
influence will ensue. I think it really happens in the mundane things, too. It’s just, you know, I’ll take
you to the dollar store or Saturday, we’ll go to the park or, Yes, I’ll help you with your homework or
Dear, I’m going to be home by six o’clock for dinner. I promise, just those kinds of things, you know,
and that makes significant deposits into the relationship. And maybe we’ll talk about that next time.
You know, that we podcast about influence. But so I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to belabor this.
Tina Gosney
12:29
I just know I love that story. I think that was great. And especially to help us everyone see that. Brent
is still human.
Brent Bartel
12:41
Oh gosh. Yes. You know, and and we never lose, right? We either win or we learn. Yeah.
Oh gosh. Yes. You know, and and we never lose, right? We either win or we learn. Yeah.
12:48
And we make amends like you buy him two packs of gummy worms instead of one. Absolutely.
12:55
We start where we are. And there’s no shame and there’s no guilt. We just start again. And we
redirect and we learned the lessons.
Tina Gosney
13:04
Right. And it’s all good. I love I love that starting again and starting where you are.
Brent Bartel
13:10
Yeah, somebody wants I think it was Stephen Covey son. He said, Look, you can never talk your way
out of problems you behaved yourself into, which seems a little depressing, because I’d love to talk
my way out of problems I’d behave myself into. But he said, but you can behave yourself out of
problems you behaved yourself into. So the doing and the being really gives us credibility. Yes. As we
move forward. Yes. All right.
Tina Gosney
13:36
Are you ready to go? Number three?
Brent Bartel
13:37
Yes, yes. All right, number three, focus on the circle of influence. So this was one of those models that
I stumbled upon many, many years ago and has had such an influential impact in my life. And I’m
sure a lot of you’re probably listeners are somewhat familiar with it. So essentially, there is a circle
and a smaller circle. Now very complicated. two concentric circles, one smaller within a larger one.
Okay? Within the circle, we place everything about which we care. So if you have any cares or
concerns about anything, you just throw it in the circle. So this might include Yeah, okay, we’re just
gonna say in the circle, yeah. Okay, so let’s say national debt, my son’s grades my boss’s attitude,
the weather this weekend, how the Arizona Cardinals are playing this year and it’s not good might I
add it’s not good it up my diets, past mistakes, migraine hair, worn Europe, all those kinds of things. We just throw it all in the circle. So the larger outside circle is what we call the circle of concern. And
this contains things that I have no influence over. That’s the important distinction. So the weather
over 100 degrees today, the end of September. Not a lot I can do about that national debt, my past
all of those kinds of things. And then within that larger circle, there’s that smaller circle. And that is
the circle of influence. And that contains those things that I am concerned about. But important
conjunction over which I have some influence. So the distinguishing character of it is things that I am
concerned about, but have no influence, obviously, things that I’m concerned about, but do have
some influence. And if we want to take a little deeper cut up this we can divide the circle of influence
into sort of direct influence, and even indirect influence. I think sometimes we dichotomize this by
thinking in terms of control or no control. And I, I really think that conversation needs to be a little
more nuanced than that.
Tina Gosney
15:57
What so maybe an example of direct influence versus indirect influence?
Brent Bartel
16:03
Yeah, so Steven, kind of divided these up. So direct control, or I’m going to use influence or control
kind of interchangeably, okay, this would include our own thoughts, our own feelings, our own
behavior. I know sometimes we think, man, I’m not even sure if I have control or too much influence
over those things. But essentially, we do. Or we can at least, so that’s just really, me and my stuff,
right? indirect control, which would be or influence would be things involving other people’s behavior,
that teenage son, spouse, my boss, a co worker, literally coach, you know, that kind of thing. And
then that that circle of sort of no control or that level of no control or no influence are things that
clearly I can do nothing about, like some of the things we mentioned. So for things over which I have
direct control, I just worked on me, I work on thoughts, I work on feelings, I work on behaviors, I work
on habits, that kind of thing, you know, and that metacognitive stuff, all the stuff happening inside
are things over which I have indirect control, and work on principles. So this is the second layer of the
pyramid, what they feel, I work on principles and practices of influence. And that’s kind of that’s kind
of the work we’re doing. And then when I have no control, well, what do you do with that? Well, I
smile, and peacefully accept them. I learned from them, I learned to live with them. And I definitely
don’t empower them to control us. I still choose my response. You know, I’m sure many of your
listeners have read that the epic work for Viktor Frankl, Man’s Search for Meaning and those atrocious
conditions in Auschwitz and, and he came up with that logotherapy meaning therapy, meaning that if
you could find meaning, if you could find a why you could almost overcome any words. And so kind of
in that face of luck, I can’t do anything about this, we still have lots of choices that we can make in
terms of how we respond to it. Right? So I think, so much of wisdom and effectiveness lies in our
ability to discern the difference between Okay, I have direct control here. Yes, I have indirect control
here. Or I have no control here. Right. And then recognizing there’s methods in sort of strategies, if
you will, kind of within each of those,
Tina Gosney
18:36
I would say that most people try to control or direct things, they have direct control on things they
have indirect control on. And I think we’ll probably get into this more in the second layer of this
pyramid. But it’s like, I want to have control over these people, and how they are showing up the
things that they are doing things that they are saying how they’re treating me, all of those things. A
lot of our pain comes from wanting to control that and not being able to, and not realizing that we
have direct control on ourselves, and how we react to those things that other people write how what
they’re saying how they’re showing up the things that they’re doing. And that that is the more of an
influence on them than trying to change and control their behavior.
Brent Bartel
19:33
Yeah, absolutely. And that is the beautiful summation of relational life right there. Right. Yeah. It
absolutely is. And it takes a lot of wisdom to recognize Hey, this is this is this is an indirect thing. And
there are certain methods that I can use to to have influence there. I think often people to come back
to the original model. They spend a lot of emotional Sometimes even physical energy in that circle of
concern, you know, I’m focused on things that I am concerned about, but I can’t change. And so I will
expend precious energy, mental, emotional, physical. And I can’t make any difference, you know, it’s
the old sort of definition of insanity. You know, that kind of thing. The rub is, if I spend more time out
in that circle of concern, and what happens to it, it grows, it gets better. And conversely, then my
circle of influence tends to contract and it gets smaller. On the other side, if I spend more time
focusing on my circle of influence things that really I can, I can influence at some level, that tends to
get bigger and my circle of concern tends to grow smaller. I know some people, I think that their
circle of influence is every bit as big as their circle of concern, practically.
Tina Gosney
20:57
What happens? Like when that happens, what do you see?
Brent Bartel
21:01
You know what, I think a lot of sort of equanimity, that’s my word for this week. But it’s this, these are
just people that are just settled and established. And, and very effective. Because they work upon
things that are priorities and things that can be influenced. And they they act upon that world.
They’re rarely acted upon. One of the things I see from these kinds of individuals, they’re never
victims. They really, they’re high on the continuum of ownership. They take responsibility for
everything in their lives. They’re never a victim. They never make mistakes. Oh, no, no. Let me slow
that down. They often make mistakes, okay. But they don’t make excuses. Yeah, and there’s, there’s
not the rationalization that, you know, often I’m very good at, I think, you know, most of us are pretty
good at. So, and then they apologize easily. I think there’s a level of humility with these types of
individuals. And it’s just that I don’t get thrown off. You can still be I don’t mean that we become
callous or unfeeling because we don’t, I can feel very deeply about things happening in Ukraine and
places like that. I just recognize that my influence is extremely limited in some of these contexts. And
so it’s wisdom that I would focus my energy because it is a finite resource. My thoughts, my emotions,
focus it on things that matter. Stephen Covey used to say the main thing is to keep the main thing,
the main thing. And a man named but a German scientist philosopher said the things that matter most
must never be at the things that matter least. And I think, essentially, we’re just similar. We focus on
the things to do matter most the things that I can I can change, or I can, I can evolve or, you know, I
can develop or advance that kind of thing. Right. Love that. Yeah, yeah. So I think that so much of our
culture now is sort of an outside in, you know, it’s a very popular model to change, what’s happening
out there needs to change before we can change. And it creates the sort of if then, contingency
relationships, well, if my husband just stops complaining, then I wouldn’t feel so much stress, right? If
my teenagers would just pick up after themselves, then I wouldn’t feel so frustrated. And this is kind
of what you refer to. So essentially, we reason what’s outside of me needs to change before what’s
inside of me
Tina Gosney
23:53
can change. Right? And then that kind of doesn’t that tie back to number one, I’m choosing a
proactive response, rather than a reactive response like those. Don’t those two feed into each other?
Brent Bartel
24:06
Excellent. They absolutely do. They absolutely. That’s a great point. Because working in the circle of
influence is always about proactive choices. It really is. Yes. And if I’m out there, in my circle of
concern, I’m almost always being reactive. We see things in the circle of concern, like criticizing and
complaining, and comparing all circle of concern kinds of things. And all reactive kinds of things as
well. Yeah. So so and you keep coming back to it, but I think is really critical is this inside our out
approach focuses on changing from the inside and choosing to be different and then by being
different on the inside? I start to change things on the outside.
Tina Gosney
24:45
Yes, so we can’t have we were talking about this before we hit record but we do have influence on the
circumstances of our life. By who we are being we can influence a circumstance.
Brent Bartel
25:03
Yes, absolutely. And I think that is a really important Aha, that even just in the basic Pavlovian
stimulus response model, the response that we choose, has the power to affect the stimulus. Yes.
Sometimes we think that those things are fixed, immutable, can’t do anything about that. And that’s
just not true. With proactive responses working within our sphere of influence, we can change the
stimulus. Sometimes we don’t have to we’re not dependent upon the stimulus changing, but yet we
cultivate the power to do so. Right?
Tina Gosney
25:39
And if we can’t influence the circumstance, sometimes we’re just given a set of circumstances, that
we really don’t have any effect over. But our capacity to handle them without being reactive to them
is greatly increased. Yeah, that’s what that’s how we influence or the change in the circumstance.
Brent Bartel
26:01
Absolutely. Yeah. I just had the thought that as we do that team, you know, the influence that we
have on others, and we’ve probably known if people in our lives and we have been those people that
have received a diagnosis, that’s, you know, not something we expected, maybe a medical malady,
or condition or something like that. And I’ve seen people that have accepted the news, and then work
within their circle of influence. And sort of born born, the challenge was such grace, and just just
elegance, if you will, and stoicism, that that alone has such powerful modeling and influence on other
people, as they see that. So absolutely. I may not be able to change, say the diagnosis. But yet, in
how I respond to the diagnosis changes me. And it can have a profound influence on other people,
too.
Tina Gosney
26:56
Right. Right. I’m thinking like, right today, there’s a hurricane that’s hitting Florida. Yes. Oh, so I’m not
aware of it’s like, like, that’s a circumstance that those people have no control over. Absolutely affects
some people vary greatly. Whether they go from an inside out approach, like what can I do here to
help the situation and the people around me? Or an outside in like, I have no control? I’m just going to
be a victim. That that is something that they that’s where their power lies. That’s where their power
to choose power to be?
Brent Bartel
27:40
Yes, absolutely. It’s great example, it’s a great example. Stephen calls out in his book. He calls out
Joseph of Egypt, you know, the biblical, you know, from the Hebrew Bible. I think that’s a really
interesting example. You know, he gets his card again, and his father gives it to him. Let’s go to many
callers throw it into a cage, Saddam slaver, 11 years of Potiphar unjustly accused Crimea and
command two years in prison, all that kind of stuff. You know, we know the story. But he just keeps
bubbling to the top. I think, I think people that work within their circle of influence, you know, a really
buoyant people, they always think that a bubbles at the top, he always he always bloomed where he
was planted, even though he was planted in some really ugly parts of the garden. And I think God is
another really great example. You know, it’s interesting that he had no formal or positional authority.
And yet through working in a circle of influence, he developed tremendous moral authority, and
effectively liberated an entire country. And he did this without any formal authority at all. So I hope
we know people like that. I mean, you don’t have to go to these historical figures. I hope we all have
sort I call them proximal heroes. I mean, just people that are close to us in our lives, I suspect. I
suspect many of your listeners are those kinds of people for other people. I think they probably are.
Yeah, yeah. And there’s so much power in that. There really is.
Tina Gosney
29:03
Yeah. Let’s go on to number four. Yeah, the last
Brent Bartel
29:09
one here. And maybe the most self evident of all is just simply live the love loves the Apostle James
and the new tests in his New Testament epistle called Love the royal life. And I really think we gain
influence within our intimate relations by showing love, particularly unconditional love. And there is
nothing there’s nothing mysterious or arcane in any of this. I think you’ve done a great job in some of
your previous podcasts about talking about unconditional love. It’s written about in so many ways, I
think sometimes we’re not exactly sure what that means, though. And what does it look like in your
day to day application? Right. It’s interesting, they’ve done lots of studies and they found out that you
know, children who are receiving unconditional love, you know, when they’re little informative, they
have better stress, resilience, better health, stronger self esteem. For better brain development, so it
actually affects them physiologically, spiritually, you know, emotionally. And I think this this
unconditional love provides this sense of intrinsic worth and security totally unrelated to conforming.
behaviors for comparison, or love is never meritorious. It’s never earned. It’s never based on terms or
conditions or the fulfilling of expectations, or, or anything like that. So our sense of security is really
needs to come from within and not from externalities, even like parents, or status, or achievement or
association, I think, particularly in this world. And you know, and we don’t want to spin off in social
media and stuff like that. But there’s so much of a comparison culture, and so much of us I have to be
a certain thing before I can feel a certain way about myself.
Tina Gosney
30:49
Yes. Well, achievement culture, once you say that, it’s all about like, a spirit, especially I see so many
parents, I spent a lot of time actually, you know, like, in the educational realm for younger children,
over a period of decades, saw how the expectations from parents changed so dramatically, to put so
much incredible pressure on young children to achieve and to be better than the kid sitting next to
them. And it was just incredibly crippling on so many kids. But I think that’s the society where society
has gone.
Brent Bartel
31:30
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. How interesting is that? So this kind of performance based identity, you know, as
good as my credit card, I’m as good as this. I’m as good as that. And, and, look, I, you know, I think a
lot of us do it, sometimes we just sort of unwittingly, you know, sometimes reflect his value, you
know, to the people around us. Because I think it’s reflected to us. And so I think some of these things
are really insidious, and really subtle,
Tina Gosney
31:57
right. And if you talk to any parents, they’re gonna say, I guess I love my children, I absolutely love
them unconditionally. But they so many of them are not aware of what they’re communicating to
their children, totally. Just by the way, that they’re interacting with them on a day to day basis, that
their love is conditional on something else. Or that or that you have to be a certain way, or I’m not
going to show you love. But it really is, if you start studying unconditional love. You start saying, Oh,
this is what happened to me. Oh, I did this, oh, I made this conditional in my home. And I didn’t
communicate to my kids, that I love you no matter what. But you don’t have to do this to earn my
love. Right. But sometimes, also unconditional love. Like I said before, I don’t remember which one we
were talking about when I said this, but it’s taking a step back and saying what looks like love in the
situation right now. Right? Sometimes that is a consequence. Sometimes that is saying no.
Sometimes it doesn’t look, it does not always look like saying yes. And I agree. I agree with
everything that you are telling me right now.
Brent Bartel
33:23
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And it doesn’t mean we forsake our standards, and we
still have expectations for the people we love, and they should have fair expectations on us. None of
that changes, like you said so elegantly. But it is not a function of how much we love them or how we
feel about them. And, and I think that I don’t know, in a day and age were just fraught with
challenges, and just an assault to our self esteem and our own personal identity, to feel that I am safe
here amidst all of the storm I know in this place with these people. Yes, they love me no matter what.
Yeah, and that sense of intrinsic security and stability, I think is so profoundly important.
Tina Gosney
34:10
And just to take that a step further, they love me, no matter who I am. Right, safe to be me around
this person right now. Yeah,
Brent Bartel
34:23
yeah. Isn’t that beautiful, too? Yeah, I can be me. And just, you know, the whole work of vulnerability,
you know, the Brene Brown and that kind of stuff, but being able to just be vulnerable and to be me,
and recognizing you’re not gonna judge me for it, and you just love me. All my imperfections, all my
stuff.
Tina Gosney
34:43
Well, and when someone knows that, that you love them no matter what, and it’s safe to be them,
their real self around you. You can still disagree with them. And they still know that you love them.
Yeah.
Brent Bartel
34:58
Yes, absolutely. And you can you can disagree without being disagreeable. And you can disagree
without violating the relationship. Yes. Because the relationship can withstand that. Yeah. And, and
sometimes, I think sometimes it’s hard, we try to communicate that, you know, particularly maybe
our teenage children. And sometimes it’s like, well, I don’t think get it. Sometimes it just, it takes
time, you know, in life and kids and circumstances, it’ll test our sincerity. And,
Tina Gosney
35:28
you know, I think sometimes we assume that our kids know that we love them. But we don’t. So we
don’t see it as often as we really need to, and express it in different ways. Which is one thing that my
husband do you know, your brother in law is extremely good, and always has been at telling the
people in his life that he loves them. Yeah. And it’s one thing that I know that as we’ve gone through
some challenges in our family, I know that his children never doubted that they were safe with him,
and that He loves them. Yeah, yeah.
Brent Bartel
36:05
Yeah, that is so beautiful. And I don’t know, I think in the end, that is probably as important as
anything else that we can do or be. It really is, you know, when we, when they live the love, love. I
mean, it’s something that is seen in that bottom level of the pyramid. And it’s something that is felt in
that middle level of the pyramid. It’s Steven tells a story. I’ve always loved this story. It was just a
seminar. And he was talking about productivity and love and some things and he says, a guy comes
up to me break and he says, Hey, Steven, I really love what you’re where you’re teaching here. I do.
But you know, I’ve been in a marriage for a long time. And it’s just, it’s not in a good place. And I don’t
really love my wife anymore. And she doesn’t love me. We have three kids, and I just don’t know how
this is gonna turn out. Stephen listens. And he looks at him and he says, well love her. And he says,
well, well, well, that’s the point. I mean, I think we were in love at one point in our lives. And I don’t
know things have just degraded over time. And it’s getting really messy. And Stephen pauses again.
And he says, well love her. And he says, Well, you know, I don’t know if you’re hearing me but but
essentially, you know, I don’t love her anymore. I mean, I love when I don’t love any any goes on, you
know, to give them this 32nd sermon about he says my friend, he says love the verb. Just what I’m
talking about, not love the feeling. And he goes on to say that, you know, and all great literature.
Love is always a verb. Love is sacrifice, love is action. Love is service. Love is listening, love is all of
these kinds of things. And he goes on to teach something that we all know, sometimes perhaps
forget. That love the verb love, the action is the thing that produces love the feeling. So he was
saying, if you are not in love with her, then love her. Listen to her, compliment her serve her, be kind
to her, forgive her. And then love the feeling will grow commensurate with you know, love the choice.
And I think Hollywood is kind of depicted as whimsical kind of this feeling of love. We’re twitterpated
man, that dates me. But
Tina Gosney
38:25
yeah, me too. I know what you’re talking. Yeah,
Brent Bartel
38:28
this sense that, you know, we have it or we don’t, and it comes in and goes. And that’s not what real
love is no. Hidden. Gandhi used to say, you know, be the change you want to see in the world. So Be
the change you want to see in your relationship. You know, and be that example of just really pure
love. I’ll give you this last little story into it really quick, but and your husband knows this gentleman,
and I know he had a very profound influence in his life as well. But I grew up across the street. After
we’d moved from Seattle to Mesa, anyway, and here’s a gentleman that went to our church and he
was kind of an older guy was very frail, very small of stature. And, you know, we were these tough,
1617 year old kids very athletic and robust. We thought we were very manly, and he was just a very
different guy. Anyway, he ended up in a Sunday school teacher of mine and, and long story short is, I
remember he had such an impact. He was an interesting guy because he would just listen. And he
would listen with his whole body. And he was always really interested in what’s going on in my life.
And I can remember him struggling just to push the lawnmower across the lawn. And finally, you
couldn’t even do that anymore. He had everything wife to it, you know, because he was just that frail.
And yet there was something about him. And he had such a profound influence in my life. We had
nothing in common. I was 17. And he was probably 60 something. But it was just sort of that Ashfaq
that connection and it’s something that you just don’t fake. And it was really genuine. And to this day,
I think about him all the time he passed away many years ago. And of all the macho kind of heroes, I
had my life or other people that I thought were the real cool ones. I don’t remember any of their
names. I don’t remember anything about them. And yes, I’m in yet I remember so much about this
little neighbor, man who lived across the street, they just love me in a way that was really peculiar. I
would just sometimes I would just sit and kind of MUSE over it. Like, I see someone interested in my
life. And they treated me with such kindness and, and, and this kind of thing, but it was contagious. I
am better every day by virtue of the fact that I knew this guy. And he kind of took me in when I was
17 years old. Yeah, it’s an it’s amazing how I think just long lasting that kind of influence can be and
how renovating.
Tina Gosney
41:09
Right? And you’re a lot older than 16. No, I’m not going to date you, but you are 16 and to be able to
remember it and just feel so influenced by him this many decades later. Yes, amazing. That’s the kind
of influence that love can have.
Brent Bartel
41:27
It is and he’s become, you know, one of my heroes. And oftentimes it’s like, I want to be like,
Tina Gosney
41:34
Yeah,
Brent Bartel
41:35
it’s crazy. I think, well, how would you love in a situation like this, it almost becomes kind of it
becomes a standard that helps to lift me, right.
Tina Gosney
41:45
So my husband and I are doing one of Jennifer Finlayson fives courses right now straight marriage
course. And it just reminds me of we were just doing one of her modules last night. And she was
talking about love. And she said, are becoming a Christ like person, I think is how she said it. But it’s
the natural man is the one that returns hate for hate. Overcoming the natural man is returning love
for hate. Yeah. And I was actually coaching someone on that this morning. She’s having trouble.
There’s a there’s a woman out there that’s threatening her marriage? Oh, yeah. And we talked a lot
about like, what does this look like in your life. And she’s, I think if I say, you know, and most people
are going to feel really threatened and angry, and want to return, hate for hate, for this person
wanting to destroy your marriage. But we talked about how this is actually we’re all given these
situations in our life, these little these big invitations, to return love for hate to become a little more
Christ, like through those experiences that we have. And it’s a little bit upon a little bit a little bit at a
time that we build on that. And I’m sure that this man that we’re talking about, wasn’t born that way.
It was something that he built over time. But it’s that this is an invitation, this situation that’s hard in
your life right now is an invitation for you to put off the natural man to do the things that we’re talking
about today. To become a different person, so that you become a person that returns love for hate.
And you become a more Christ like, grounded loving person in the process.
Brent Bartel
43:38
Yeah. Yeah, that is really powerful. That’s really powerful. And I think about this individual. And I think
he he taught me things he like, sat down with me and taught me things, you know, and is in
sometimes in a spiritual sense, sometimes just, you know, in a more intellectual sense. But he had
the power to teach me at that top level of the pyramid. Because I knew how he felt about me and I
saw it modeled in his life. I knew who he was. So his teaching took on such credibility and such power
because there is this beautiful congruence, there is no hypocrisy, no slip between cup and lip. He
taught me what he was. And it was really powerful. Yeah, so I think that’s, I think that’s a great
example. Yeah. Thanks for sharing.
Tina Gosney
44:27
This has been awesome. I have loved talking about this. Inside Out. It’s an inside job. This Inside Out
approach. We have our two takeaways, and a challenge. What’s your today Brent?
Brent Bartel
44:44
Yes, thank you. This is a big responsibility. So how do I do this? Okay.
Takeaway Number One
The first takeaway, I thought is
simply if you want to influence pals, children, friends, community and nation the world are with
yourself some meaningful changes in inside job, just like you said, that’s kind of that’s kind of the
summum bonum moving Latin term for everything we’ve talked about.
Takeaway Number Two
And the second takeaway
would be learning to distinguish between situations or challenges where we have direct influence,
indirect influence, and no influence is critical to empowering transformational lives. So being able to
distinguish, you know, where am I? What domain Am I at? And what is their situation need for me?
Yes.
Challenge
And the one challenge, and I wanted something that was really pretty tangible and objective. So
focus this week or this next week on mindfully making commitments and promises and then keep
them with exactness. Even trust? Yes. So yes, yes, yourself, trust and confidence will grow as you do.
A psychologist named Albert van bendera. And he developed a theory of self efficacy. And it was
simply our belief on our own abilities and talents that our belief that our choices can determine our
future. Pretty basic and pretty profound. So I think that kind of speaks to that, that create, you know,
just make the promises and commitments and just keep them and make them sparingly, maybe still
to this week. Make them sparingly. And as we do that, we develop this growing sense of kind of self
efficacy, which I think is really powerful.
Tina Gosney
46:34
I love the two takeaways in a challenge, because I like to sum it all up in a couple of takeaways. And
then the challenge, I think, comes with the coach and me and maybe the with the coaching you like
yeah, now what are you going to do with this? Let’s actually, like put this into some action. And how
can we start putting these principles that we’ve learned today into effect in our lives, and to start
living into the commitments that you’re making?
Brent Bartel
47:06
Yes, thank you. Yeah, it’s all about, you know, the know what not to do is not the now so. Yeah, it was
a Dewayne sport. Yeah.
Tina Gosney
47:16
Okay. Brent, if people want to get a hold of you, how do they do that? They want to find you after this
podcast.
Brent Bartel
47:23
Yeah, well, at this point is still operating from email. So maybe we can just leave the email in the
show notes. And yeah, I’d be delighted to hear from people. Yeah.
Tina Gosney
47:32
And then next time we get together, we’re going to talk about the second layer in the pyramid, the
relationship feel level. And how do we influence there? Let’s do Yeah. Okay. Awesome. Love
Brent Bartel
47:45
to come back.
Tina Gosney
47:47
Thanks so much for being here.
Brent Bartel
47:48
Oh, thank you. Yeah, had a great time. It was a really good conversation. Okay,
Tina Gosney
47:52
great. I really hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation that I had with Brent, about the pyramid of
influence. And this was just the beginning because we’re going to do more, and talk about the next
two levels of this pyramid.
So I just want you to remember you can be the one to influence your
family and create a strong, resilient foundation. Start by taking Brent’s challenge. Just be aware of the
promises and commitments you’re making. And keep them with exactness, especially to yourself.
You’ll begin to strengthen your bottom level of your pyramid of influence. And you’re going to start
seeing changes coming from the inside out. That’s what I have for you today.
Have a great week and I’ll see you next time.
